The Economy and its effect on Engraving

[jlseymour]

With all the Blabla on bailout of banks, wall street and auto industry and no money in circulation, only a few have plenty and so many without...
So many of my customers had so little to celebrate at Christmas and their children received the worse Christmas in their life time...
I'm fortunate to have a wife that make enough to keep our nose and eyes above the high water, but it's getting to the point I'm on my tip toes...
The jewelry industry has been hit hard and many that lease and not own their property will be having to close along with so many other small businesses...
I'm starting to see many businesses in the Central Florida close from big name restaurants to large electronics stores...
I guess I should be thankful for all we have and try to share what little is left over with less fortunate...
Enough rambling...:willy_nilly:
Post some of your Ideas on how to help turn things around...
Jerry

[WVEngraver]

Hi Jerry, glad you started this and thank-you. I hope there's a lot more rambling that takes place in this thread.

My retired jeweler friend says jewelers are the first ones hit by a recession but they are also the first ones to climb out of it.

I did half as much work as I did last year. I'm a bit frustrated as well as I'm just gaining momentum in this new career and it seems like the rug is being pulled out from under me.

I sometimes wonder if location make all the difference but then cost of living makes that a relative issue.

The days of being selective about what jobs I take in are kinda over for awhile. I'm also going to look into some lower priced production engraving items that I can market on ebay. Airamp has got some excellent advice for selling on ebay around this forum someplace.

I'll have more thoughts later on this.

Chris

[airamp]

Hi Chris,

I posted on the forum when i just joined the forum. SVD Steve started a thread on selling on ebay for me since I guess i was posting on someones thread and wasn't used to posting here.

Here is the SVD thread he started for me. (thanks Steve).

http://www.handengravingforum.com/sh...ng+ebay&page=2

I have to say ebay has slowed down also but people are still buying.

I would start listing some of the cheaper items with some easy engraving on them to get some feedback going. Like Zippo lighters, Key rings, or offer custom initals on them for people (something that is quick to cut but get paid up front).

I and still do would go to craigs list in your local area and watch it every day for tools, and other things you might be interested (or have knowledge of). Buy them as soon as they get listed since there are alot of people doing this.

When you see something you know is way underpriced check it on ebay for what it is selling for (sign in and view completed items). So you know you can
at least triple your money (2 1/2) is ok. (gas, clean up, time to photo and list it, store it) you get the idea.

Look for universitys that sell surplus, check your local citys for where they sell there surplus and visit them regularly. $ 35.00 can bring you $1,400 on a luck day. Mostly $35.00 will bring you $100.00 or so if you choose what you buy carefully.

I went to one craigs list place selling lapidary equiptment and jewlery tools and walked out with some nice handtools and 73 oz of sterling for about $200.00.

It is not only engraving or jewlery that will sell so be flexable when the times start getting tough.

Everyone is affected by this and they just what to get out of there storage units, sell the stuff before the move (or get foreclosed on). So buy with knowledge and you do have to take some chances.

I will be glad to help anyone that need the help to sell on ebay.

Turn lemons in to lemonade..

AirAmp

[carl bleile]

Do the best work you can and there will allways be someone out there to buy it, I have seen times tougher then these and good work will pay off. The good news is that over 90% of the people still have good jobs but are careful because of all the bad news the media likes to put out. People still buy things or at xmass nobody would have bought anything and if I remember the numbers right sales were down about 2%(usualy their up a little)
Keep cutting,
Carl Bleile
southwest, Ohio

[Ddbltrbl]

I really appreciate and agree totally with the call from everyone for a positive attitude. But, I'm having a hard time separating the hype from the reality way over here in Japan. I hear similar comments to Jerry's from family and friends, but haven't seen anything concrete enough for me to decide just how bad it really is. (Jerry, I'm not implying that your comments were hype or invalid in anyway, just didn't see any hard specifcs.)

Sure, I hear projections of 6.5% unemployment, but I also remember days when 7 - 8% was the norm. I remember all the wringing of hands years ago about how the Japanese were putting US Steel out of business. And, yes Allentown lost something like 5-6% of it's population in the 70's. But, I don't remember having any real problem getting a job back then, even in the recession of the early 80's. I changed jobs 3 or 4 times during that period, and as long as I had a little drive, even with no real education or any great deal of experience, I managed to find work.

I'm in business management for a large US company in Japan and we are definitely feeling some pressure. We are in a total hiring freeze, however we have been riding just on either side of that border since around 2001.

I don't mean to belittle anyone's suffering, and I am sure with the obvious slow-down that there are people having rough times, and that high-end businesses like jewelry are likely some of the first to feel the pain, but how bad is it really? I haven't heard of any of my relatives losing jobs! Then again, bootleggin in the Ozarks usually booms in times like these, so maybe that's not a good example! But, stores like Bennigans and Circuit City were already on their last legs. I'm surprised they held on as long as they did, given what I saw the last time I was in either one.

So, is this a real long term, hardcore collapse of our economy, or is it just a couple of quarters of knee-jerk adjustment, exacerbated by a lack of a saving mind set and the talking heads in the media and on the internet yelling, "Fire!", all resulting in a natural weeding out the deadwood?

I tend to think it is the first because of my own personal belief that our current economy is fundamentally flawed, and because we haven't had enough time to really start seeing the ripple effect from the various factory slow-downs, stoppages, and the bail-outs; not to mention the potential fall-out from the policy changes of the coming administration! But, I can't say for certain how bad it is. How far is going to collapse?

Just FYI: Toyota took a total of 14 days work stoppage and the Japanese import / export trade balance has been in the red since October, but I work in the Ginza area of Tokyo (think downtown Manhattan) and just spent time with the wife's relatives in the Toyota HQ area and I haven't seen any sign of a slowdown in buying at either location. The big brand stores here all seem to still have a steady flow of customers. But, then again the local common populace (as with most places) usually seems to have their heads buried right up until something bites them in the behind.

So, suggestions on what we can do? (Ignoring the 600lb gorilla of the fundamental flaw in our economy) I would suggest that we --
stay positive,
keep working,
work together,
be prepared,
save what we can,
be creative and make opportunies happen,
and help our friends, family and acquaintances that are in need.

But, I hope that's what we are doing anyway!

Come what may, let's all pray that ... God Bless the USA

[Jroettger]

I hear from most jewelers that sales for Christmas were typically down 33% instead of the 2% for all retail sales in general. My 4th qtr. sales were down 33%. I am experiencing deflationary pressures like never before. Too many of the bids I'm doing are being rejected like never before. I get the feeling if I bid 1/2 of my normal price the job would fly. But I know with 1/2 as much I would only be setting myself up for eventual failure. I am working out of a retail store and need to charge $50 and hour minimum to other jewelers for wholesale. I figure if I worked out of my basement I could do well at $30 an hour without the retail overhead. My plan is to expand my service into gun engraving this year. However I've always found engraving to be a tough sell even in the best of times. People have always been much more willing to pay me well for goldsmithing services compared to engraving. With engraving they're not getting any gold with the job so they can't figure out why it should cost over $100 to have a baby cup engraved. Engraving is totally a labor of love, It's much more difficult than most goldsmithing and many jobs can take from a few to many hours to complete. Skating around on gold pendant is usually more difficult than crafting the same pendant in terms of mastery. Even though I usually make 66% of my income from goldsmithing, the thing that's keeping me busy since October '08 and making most of my money is hand engraving. There just is no replacing it yet. Machines can't do many of the jobs I end up with so the service still has it's niche.

I think we'll probably end up like France in the future with stagnant growth because of poor management of entitlement funds and obligations. (Instead of saving they spent our social security money creating the best military on the planet. Now we only have enemies to show for it.). These problems are going to hobble us for at least 5 to 10 decades to come. Just as France saw it's glory days 100 years ago so too will our glory days economically be gone for a very long time. Repaying the debt will result in high taxes and the lethargy and disincentive they bring will be the new economy.

[ron]

hi Chris .. you should look into the custom knife engraving , there is a lot of business there right now i have all that i can handle and there is more out there ,, give me a call and i will give you some leads .. also you got to start doing some quality gun shows , there is still some good work there .. i just picked up a new knife dealer who said that he can keep me busy for a while .. also think about teaching ..ron p

[WVEngraver]

Thank-you Airamp. It's a buyers market right now and a good time to clear some extra silver sheet off the bench. My good friend on the other side of the county, Flatlandforge (Aaron), is a guru with recognizing items for sale here and there and turning a nice profit on Ebay.

I've even got some spare m/c parts kicking around that I will engrave and chrome plate for sale on EBay.

Hi Ddbltrbl (Happy Birthday!!) , I think your proximity to the hype is far better than it is here. We're getting pounded from every angle. It's all propaganda but I think for the first time in a very long time, Fox News actually makes sense. They are the only ones talking about this country's shift from what I call "Faux Conservatism" to the "Cult of Personality.


btw .... bootlegging is not just up in the Ozarks

James, Excellent insight. The end of American hegemony is certainly upon us. Part of France's problem is that they are still apologizing for the historical events that once made them "great". We could learn alot from Europe's rise and fall but we won't.

Ron,

Shows are a hit or miss deal. I do intend to join you again for another show but I must have some engraved things to sell. I'd like to join you for the Allentown show but probably not the one in February. I have decided to sell a few things but hold on to most of those investments anticipating the new weapons ban that is surely on its way. Carl is right ... just keep cutting.

Now if I could just get a couple more knives made up from Kirby. One is already sold.

As for me teaching - maybe someday when I learn how to engrave. I cherish my solitude in the hills but it's nice to have a visitor from time to time. Instead of milk and cookies at breaktime, there's a bunch of rounds that we can shoot into the hillside. I call it good therapy to offset the stress of information overload. Sorry, but cookies will not suffice!!

One thing's for sure, I wouldn't feel comfortable taking someone's money in an uncertain economy unless he/she already understood the importance of THE PENCIL as well as practical (and somewhat common) business sense as it pertains to engraving.


I'll catch ya later.

Chris

[john88]

I hear you guys and its sad and lonesome when you are out of work. You must keep up your spirits and it will work itself out. I know for I went thru the big depression in the 1930's
things were real bad I spent a few days in the soup lines in N.Y. I also was a engraver and there was no work to be found. Iwish you all the best John88

[Big-Un]

Well, the "recession" or whatever you want to call it, has hit us hard in our little town in NW North Carolina. When we moved here in 2003 (retirement) most of the populace was working, but since then it seems all the textiles and furniture makers have left town, going overseas where labor is cheaper and government interference is minimal. The population since 2003 has gone from around 16000 to about 14000, but the sad note is most of them refuse to leave the area, as they are generations deep and the ties are very strong to the community. So, they stay and do what they can and work away from home in order to keep the family homestead. Some have resorted to selling old timber on their lands just to keep food on the table. We have 15% unemployment and some have exhausted their unemployment benefits and receive nothing except by the graces of the local churches who help with food and basic essentials. Just last January Sara-Lee fabrics shut down completely and laid off 750 people, and at the same time another company folded putting another 60 folks out of work. That is close to 5% of our population with only two companies shutting down. They aren't the only ones, as it seems at least two firms close each month and this has been going on for 5 years. The economy here is bad, but the people have not lost their dignity or their desire to work, and they get up every day and try and figure out some way to care for their families. The American Spirit is not dead here and may God help those that try and interfere with it. We seem to fit the new standard of extremists and terrorists, as we all (well, the vast majority) go to church, read their Bible's daily, own guns and an unusually high percentage are veterans. We will survive this "economic downturn" in spite of Washington and our "so-called" leaders. 2010 is right around the corner and most of the folks I talk with are adament about replacing everyone in office, especially those that voted for the stimulus package. Well, enough ranting, trying to keep under the radar!

Bill

[WVEngraver]

I figured things would be much worse than they are and that's largely because West Virginia has it's own economy. People try to keep their money in the state by spending it in the state when they can. Now I understand why. Despite being a constantly slow local economy, it remains relatively stable.

The custom gun and knife engraving has almost screeched to a halt but none of that really sells here locally anyway. Jewelry is still busy since picking up after a pathetic December but has predictably slowed for the 4th.

I can't get into the minds of customers but maybe they are moving what they can into tangibles of more intrinsic value. As John88 recalls some memories of the depression, I'm sure there are a lot that remember when owning gold was illegal.

Some jewelry stores in Charleston are going under. Economic fluctuations weed out the players that don't maintain high quality and reputation. I was lucky in choosing the best stores in town to contract to. Carl's earlier post about doing the best work you can is right.

----

Bill, it pains me to hear about your town. I personally believe it is too late to fix what has been broken for so long. I hope I am wrong. We keep waiting for the next election over and over and over till another decade has come and gone and the net gain out of the worm hole remains negative.

As I modify this post again, I am trying to focus on the things keep spirits up. The timing was perfect to get the best issue of The Engraver that FEGA has produced to date. I hope it was as uplifting for everyone as it was for me.



Take care

Chris

[SVD]

You know Chris, you may well be right.

This could be a (reasonably) good time for engraving because of the economic woes and uncertanties. When faced with investments that can melt away like the morning dew and 'cash' that could be reduced to poor quality TP it's easy to see people deciding that now is a good time to put some of their money into things with intrinsic value.

Heck, if the economy is going to take away any money we try to save why not pick up something that makes you happy now and could be traded for (the equivalent of) what you paid for it later?

While Hobo Nickels probably weren't carved with pocket knives in campsites, they were used to get more than a nickel's worth of whatever during the last Depression.

[jimzim75]

Hi everyone,
Up here in Canada, the country has had a history of ups and down in the
economy the have had a real impact on my employment. This was before
the current problems that are facing the world in general.

Free trade kick the snot out of Canada and was 15 year recovering from that.
We had Branch plants here in Canada for all the USA companies because as
the law was before free trade, it was required if they were going to sell here.
Think of every item in a grocery store, they all had little factories of 50 people or so. After free trade, they all closed........... I was out of work again.
I didn't even work for a Branch plant. Demand was down.

The USA is now experiencing the same thing but on a Huge scale, and the jobs have left the country for off shore countries. Mostly China.
It's very difficult to compete with slave wages which is exactly what's happening there.

The President and the politicians would like industry to pull the country out
of this episode. They have some vague idea that technology will do this.
Let the Chinese have all those low tech jobs.

This is a huge mistake. Every job is important and keeping fingers crossed
whistling a merry tune, is just not going to make them appear.
No politician wants to do it, but it going to take some hefty duty laws
on imports to make an opportunity for business to be created.

That sort of sums up the way I seen it happen.

What I did to make myself recession proof.

I got tired of being laid off during every down turn.
I took a look at what I could do.

1. 1. I could set diamonds.
   2. I could make master of jewellery to be put into production.
   3. I could do special order work.

I looked at what I needed to do.
I needed to learn engraving and not old way. So I started to ask for the tooling.
I bought the tooling for my home shop also. I took classes in engraving, I got
the shop where I worked to pay 80% of the cost.
I made sample plates, a lot of sample plates. I research what would sell and
what was a waste of time.

I learned how to make a web page and how to do the photography.

I quit working for just one shop. I went out and found many accounts.
If I could, I developed a personal rapport with the store owners. Some accounts
I've lost for one reason or another. Those I still have are extremely loyal to me.

I learned book keeping and got help from my wife who is a professional bookkeeper.

I have made myself a mini corporation without overhead that is now crushing
most of my competition. You will get the same quality if not higher than you can get form a 50 man shop in Montreal or Toronto. I quicker and more
versatile.

I advertise the company or myself in the trades. I advertise in small ads but for the whole year. It's the only way to get results.

I educate myself to make new products and then I educate the store owners
to sell them.

The Results.
I stupidly busy every week. I just finished off this bit of insanity and learned
a couple of things to boot.


People come to me because they can leave a project for me to do and it
will get done on target for price and time. I only call them up to give them
options they didn't even realize they had. I offer them solid solution in the
form of, you can choose A,B, or C. All will look good. They can offer them to
their customer and sound more knowledgeable than they might be.

No doubt this is bling. But I've also found that engraving is selling well also.
The combination of all three. Diamond setting in a great mount that is engraved. Is keeping me really busy.

What happening right now.
There are fewer orders but they are all rush. They also make more money per
order, because they are rush. The only trick is to keep the quality as high,
as if there was no rush at all.

That's the way I see it.
Talk to ya later,
Jim